Talk:Provinces of Finland

(Rated Start-class, High-importance)

	Finland portal v t e This article is within the scope of WikiProject Finland, a WikiProject related to the nation of Finland. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
Start	This article has been rated as Start-Class on the project's quality scale.
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

A template for the provinces?[edit]

How about starting up a project to provide a template for the provinces? The Wikipedia:WikiProject Swedish counties could be used as a basis for creating the new parallel project Wikipedia:WikiProject Finnish provinces, under Wikipedia:WikiProject Countries. -- Mic 12:15 Apr 11, 2003 (UTC)

Yes, that is a good idea. I'll have to think a bit about what should be included on the individual province pages. Also a Wikipedia:WikiProject Finnish regional councils would have to be started -- JNi 12:47 Apr 11, 2003 (UTC)

I know that Finland has a two tier structure regionally, and I'm not entirely clear over how they are constituted. For Sweden, I chose to make one entry for the County and then from the inside provide links to separate entries for the County Administrative Boards and the County Councils. These are separate entities but they still share the same geographical area. From what I gather, the Finnish regional councils have a position somewhat similar to the Swedish county councils but also some how connected to the municipalities, and with their own distinct geographical areas. There would also be cases for Wikipedia:WikiProject Finnish municipalities and Wikipedia:WikiProject Swedish municipalities. -- Mic 13:42 Apr 11, 2003 (UTC)

It would probably be more to the point to call the new Big-läänit counties instead of provinces. Province would be better used for such things as Tavastia and Savonia.

Translation of "läänit/län"[edit]

End of moved text.

Should läänit/län be translated as provinces or counties? In Sweden län are counties, but the Lääninhallitus English Website uses the translation provinces. - Efghij 00:42 13 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Changes of 13 July 2003 are a mess[edit]

The changes implemented around July 13, to the articles relating to the current administrative provinces of Finland is a complete mess. It attempted to replace the official Finnish translation into province by an alternate translation into "counties" and introduced a number of unfactual or otherwise unsubstantiated statements. The state of the affected articles is not satisfactory and the process of reverting the changes will begin. Any discussion regarding the structure of the modern geographical divisions of Finland is welcome at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject Finnish provinces. -- Mic 10:09 14 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Miscellaneous discussion[edit]

Two things:

"Lappi leanaráđđehus" probably means "State provincial office of Lapland" (ie Lapin lääninhallitus). Does anyone know the real saami name for "Province of Lapland"?

I'm sure you're right. (Which equals to: I'm sure I made one of my many mistakes. It's only embarrasing that I wrote that in a summary comment, wherefrom it can't be removed...)--Ruhrjung 17:19, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Province of Lapland : Lappi leana (officially) / Sámi leana. -- Picapica 10:00, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Why do we have to write "The Åland Islands"? Note that there is a province of Åland too. At least they have a state provincial office. "Åland Islands" may be the correct english translation for "landskapet Åland", but at least the State provincial offices call it the "province of Åland" [1]. -- Jniemenmaa 09:00, Aug 21, 2003 (UTC)

A study of this page's history of change gives a particularly confused impression. There are obviously several grounds for this, one of them being that of terminology. It's often said that Åland is an autonomous "province" - and the same term is used for läänit.

Another ground probably being User:Efghij's agenda[2]? The question is why the following paragraph is perceived as sensitive. I guess there are other feelings at play than a love to veracity (which with good will could be seen in his removal of my contributions)?

The Åland Islands enjoy a high degree of autonomy, why the scope of the Province of Åland is limited compared to the provinces in mainland Finland.

--Ruhrjung 17:19, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I don't have any agenda here. The reason I reverted your contribution, is that, as far as I can tell, it doesn't make any sense.

That was my point. With good will, ...with very much good will, one could see something similar to a longing for veracity in your lacking understanding for my contributions. But when it comes to the quote above, I really wonder what moves you on.

Is Åland's autonomy such a sensitive subject, that it has to be erased from wherever possible. One of the things I think you Finns ought to be the most proud of does seemingly give you quite other feelings. Think if [[Alsace|Elsass]] or Schleswig could have been treated equally fair by Germany; imagine how much better Germany's reputation would have been...--Ruhrjung 17:01, 23 Aug 2003 (UTC)

What does "why the scope of the Province of Åland is limited compared to the provinces in mainland Finland" mean? Is Åland's autonomy the reason it is smaller than other provinces? Does its autonomy reduce the power of the provincial office?

Well, wouldn't it better be you who answered that question? --Ruhrjung 17:01, 23 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I'm just trying to establish what "why the scope of the Province of Åland is limited compared to the provinces in mainland Finland" is suppossed to mean, so that it can be re-phrased and put back into the article.

The Åland Islands is the normal English translation of "Landskapet Åland", since the archipelago is coterminous with the province.

May one ask what terminous and co-terminous means? I guess you agree that Landskapet Åland and Ålands län are two different authorities?--Ruhrjung 17:01, 23 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Co-terminous means it has the same borders. The Åland Islands, Landskapet Åland, & Ålands län are co-terminous. I don't think we should have a seperate articles for the archipelago, the province, OR the region. There is currently one article, Åland. We should cover all aspects of its government in that article

It doesn't make sense to have two wikipedia articles on it. - Efghij 19:59, Aug 22, 2003 (UTC)

But this article is about the provinces of Finland. There is a article about the regions of Finland. I wasn't proposing that we should have two articles for Åland. A similiar case is the province and region of Lapland since they have exactly the same borders too. When and if I get around to writing articles for the regions I'll do a Lapland (region).

There shouldn't be two articles about Lapland either, although it might make sense to move Lapland (province) to Lapland (Finland).

Well, at least we are talking about this now. Usually someone just comes in and changes everything from provinces to counties without even bothering to explain why... :) -- Jniemenmaa 10:02, Aug 23, 2003 (UTC)

For the record, I was trying to merge Provinces of Finland with Counties of Finland under what I assumed was the correct translation. I wasn't aware that the Finnish government translated län differently than the Swedish government.

I propose the following text: Due to the fact that the Åland Islands enjoy a high degree of autonomy, the State Provincial Offices of Åland have extended authority, compared to those on mainland Finland, in areas such as education and other public sevices. The Governor of Åland also has special duties compared with the other provincial Governors. [3]

Please expand this if you want to. I'll move it to the article tomorrow. -- Jniemenmaa 17:31, Aug 23, 2003 (UTC)

Don't. That would only make the reader confused. Consider:

Central government, which the province authority is a part of, has less authority than on the mainland (due to autonomy).
The Province of Åland takes care of some duties of other state authorities that aren't represented by office/officials/authority on Åland (rather due to Åland's small population, than due to autonomy).
It is the region (maakunta/landskapet) which has extended authority compared to the mainland regions (not the province).

Oh, I wasn't confusing maakunta and lääni. The lääninhallitus on Å is of course is very limited compared with the others. But as you say they take care of (authority might be a bit too strong) other things. You are entirely correct. -- Jniemenmaa 09:14, Aug 24, 2003 (UTC)

I must say that I didn't really understand what was wrong with the wording I proposed[4]: The Åland Islands enjoy a high degree of autonomy, why the scope of the Province of Åland is limited compared to the provinces in mainland Finland.

The problem is the sentence is ambigous (and also lacks an appropriate conjection). Saying "the scope of the Province" makes it unclear wheater you're refering to the provincial's governments power, the geographic size of the province, or something else entirely.

My sugestion is "The Åland Islands enjoy a high degree of autonomy, which means the authority of Federally-appointed State Provincial Office is significantly reduced." - Efghij 04:02, Aug 24, 2003 (UTC)

I'am sorry! But "Federally-appointed". LOL! No offense! :) -- Jniemenmaa 09:14, Aug 24, 2003 (UTC)

Compare (from the reference (3) above):

Inom de områden som hör till självstyrelsen utövas lagstiftning och förvaltning av Ålands lagting och Ålands landskapsstyrelse. Detta innebär att Länsstyrelsen på Åland har färre och delvis andra uppgifter än de övriga länsstyrelserna i landet.

--Tuomas 03:01, 24 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Great! Now we are getting somewhere! :)

So how about: Due to the fact that the Åland Islands enjoy a high degree of autonomy, the authority of the State Provincial Office is significantly reduced compared with the other Provinces.

More of this should of course be added under Åland#Politics. -- Jniemenmaa 09:14, Aug 24, 2003 (UTC)

Right; "federal" isn't the right word in this context. I think your last version is fine, although the article should mention how the State Provincial Offices are appointed by the central government, so that its clear how Åland's autonomy give the State Provincial Office less power. - Efghij 17:33, Aug 24, 2003 (UTC)

I agree with User:Efghij, but do also believe that the word "authority" maybe ought to be avoided as it can have several confusing meanings. I think viranomainen --> "Authority" is the default translation, why the wording with "reduced authority" calls for improvements.

What about:

6 Province of Åland¹ (Ålands län²)

¹ Some duties, which on mainland-Finland are handled by the provinces, are on the autonomous Åland Islands transferred to the local government.

² The Åland Islands are unilingually Swedish. The Finnish language name of the province is: Ahvenanmaan lääni

--Ruhrjung 18:17, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I think "mainland" can be misleading since Åland is just a part of the archipelago. -- Jniemenmaa 08:43, Aug 27, 2003 (UTC)

I'm fond of that term. I think I've used it here. In my eyes constructs such as "the rest of Finland" are awkward, too clearly indicating our bad command of English.

What would you propose as translation of Manner-Suomi?

The proposed footnote wording is shorter, to the point.

--Tuomas 00:23, 30 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Ok, mainland Finland is probably the best translation. I was just trying to get rid of some ambiguity. -- Jniemenmaa 08:20, Aug 30, 2003 (UTC)

This discussion primarily concerns the Provinces of Finland and how the Åland aspect should be covered. I think that the discussion covers alot of ground and sorts out a number of issues regarding Åland. I am concerned however over that the outcome might not place enough emphasis on the autonomy issue. I am primarily concerned over this for reasons of clarity.

The fundamental issue regarding the autonomy of Åland, is to me represented by the fact that Finland ultimately does not have the competence do decide over the basis of the autonomy. This means that even if the Eduskunta would venture to grant the same level of autonomy to the other provinces of Finland, Åland would still retain it's special status. So in essence one could say that it is not really the issue of autonomy but rather emphasis its treaty bound status that I'm concerned over.

Finland could probably have opted for a sollution where Åland had evolved into a dependency, with a separate status and a relationship similar to one between Denmark and the Faroe Islands or Greenland. Instead the Finnish political system chose to integrate Åland as far as possible in to the structures established for the rest of the country. From this perspective Åland should be considered as an integral part of Finland rather than a dependency.

From this perspective it may be difficult to distinguish the Provincial Office of Åland (even with special characteristics) from other provinces and maybe "Landskapsstyrelsen" from other regions of Finland, but not doing so does not take into account the specialness of the relationship between Åland and Finland. It can be argued whether the Provincial Office of Åland is the direct representation of the central government to the autonomous Self Government of Åland, or a provincial office (with special characteristics, but still) comparable to the other provincial offices in Finland.

It would be faulty to percieve "Landskapsstyrelsen" as an organ comparable or at the same level as the Regional Councils on the mainland (even with special characteristics), principally because the treaty bound autonomy, in the questions regarding autonomy, places the Self Government of Åland on the same level, or directly below the Government of Finland and above other state organs.

Åland is a relatively minor territory with a limited population and its position should neither be exaggerated nor diminished, but adequately described. To me it is more important to place emphasis on the specialness of the the autonomous Self Government of Åland, rather than on the placement in the bureaucratic structures of Finland, even if this also should be accurately described. Because of this I am of the opinion that this would be best achieved in one single entry, rather than splitting in into separate entries to cover different aspects. -- Mic 16:23, Aug 30, 2003 (UTC)

A territory can be significant due to size or numerous population, but also due to other factors. In the case of Åland I'm convinced of the remaining military importance, just to mention one.

Regarding the region, I might very well agree with you, although the scope of the autonomy shouldn't be exaggerated; but when it comes to the Province authority, I do not. Landskapsstyrelsen expresses and executes the autonomy according to Självstyrelselagen aswell as local government according to other laws. Länsstyrelsen, on the other hand, projects the power of the sovereign. The Province Authority is a minor aspect, influenced by, but separate from, the autonomy. There lies also a danger in reading more into the Ålandsöverenskommelsen[5] than it really says.

You write:

It can be argued whether the Provincial Office of Åland is the direct representation of the central government to the autonomous Self Government of Åland, or a provincial office (with special characteristics, but still) comparable to the other provincial offices in Finland.

If the Governor and his office had interacted solely (or almost solely) with the Local Government (Landskapsstyrelsen), then his office would have been Finland's representation to autonomous Åland. Further, there would have been no reason for the local government to influence the President's appointment of governor if he was only Finland's government's representative in relation to the local government. But as the province to a significant degree interacts with the population in a similar fashion as in mainland-Finland, I think it's safe to say that the Provincial Office on Åland to some degree resembles those of the other provinces.

With these exceptions I agree with you, and could have written your lines myself. --Tuomas 01:03, 31 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Test version[edit]

fyi .. there is a test version at Talk:Provinces of Finland/Different version I moved out of article namespace. -- User:Docu

Map[edit]

When you set the font one fraction larger (or more), the map overlaps the table. FYI. Jeroenvrp 23:10, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

Firefox has the same problem. --TonyM ^{ｷﾀ━( °∀° )━ｯ!!} 19:24, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

...except you don't even have to set a larger font. God I love Firefox. --TonyM ^{ｷﾀ━( °∀° )━ｯ!!} 19:26, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Län <--> Landskap / Lääni <--> maakunta[edit]

Jaakko , I suggest that you read the texts about the Åland adminstrative issues before changing, it is only on paper a "län", all its functions are handled by the "landskap"'s-adminstration. Thus it is by definition the latter. [6]: "Vaikka Lääninhallituslaki mainitsee "Ahvenanmaan läänin", on tämä olemassa vain nimellisesti, useimpien läänien tehtävien kuuluessa Ahvenanmaan maakuntahallitukselle." MoRsE 23:07, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Still since it is officially a lääni it should be mentioned as such in the list of Finnish läänit. --Jaakko Sivonen 16:43, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

For once, I'll agree with Jaakko. Although the landskap administration handles all thing, it is a Finnish lääni at least on paper and I see no harm in mentioning it as such in this article.JdeJ 16:48, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Major update needed[edit]

This page and all related pages need a major update. The provinces were abolished today.[7] --Silvonen (talk) 08:21, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

So does that mean that, apart from the state, municipalities are the biggest units now? --ざくら木 13:42, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

No, there are still regions in between. --Silvonen (talk) 15:49, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Proposed merge[edit]

The related Category:Provinces of Finland has been nominated for deletion, merging, or renaming. You are encouraged to join the discussion on the Categories for Discussion page.

--Silvonen (talk) 07:10, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

What's the different between:[edit]

What's the different between:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regions_of_Finland

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Province_of_Finland

It took me hours to find a province, while I was looking for a region... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.127.113.209 (talk) 13:11, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Anh Duc Wiki -3

Monday, December 7, 2020