Talk:Goguryeo

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Goguryeo is an Empire[edit]

<nationalist rant removed again>

You have no right to delete a section with no reason. I recovered this thread to be visible to the public once again. You always accuse and demoralize the Koreans as being 'nationalist', yet a statement going the other way around is wrong and unacceptable? Wandrative (talk) 19:21, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

The above attack on me (You always accuse and demoralize the Koreans) was never stricken despite my requests, so I might as well note here that the editor who wrote it was indeffed for a bunch of reasons including making personal attacks like the above. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:10, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
  • @Zanhe: Can I please enlighten you with pure information for once, Wikipedia aside? Of course Goguryeo is described as a Kingdom because It was a Kingdom, and it was a Kingdom for a long time, then It became an Empire. Rome was a Kingdom, then a Republic, then an Empire. This is basic stuff. It does not work like Chinese dynasties where one dynasty has to always be a dukesdom/kingdom/empire. Please stop being so biased and Sinocentric for once. If the ideology is not Sinocentric then it is suddenly a "minority/fringe theory". I might as well as help the Vietnamese from the Sinocentrics if this continues. And please acknowledge what you did. You did not simply disagree with me, as mentioned before, you erased entire sources and misrepresented them. That is vandal activity.Wandrative (talk) 01:43, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
Why do you have this battleground mentality treating this as a battle of ethnic groups? Go ahead and help the Vietnamese from the "Sinocentrics" by all means, as long as you use quality sources. I only care about what neutral reliable sources say, and I've reverted multiple "Sinocentrics" myself (see [1] [2] [3]). Rome is universally recognized as an empire, and as the Google Ngram shows, Goguryeo is not. -Zanhe (talk) 03:18, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
  • @Alex Shih: I think this is long enough ago that your "involvedness" is not an issue. Would you mind re-blanking this section, whichThis section originally consisted of nothing but off-topic personal attacks and advocacy of OR and plagiarism?. I don't think User:Wandrative would consider re-restoring the section or calling me and [[User:Zanhe}} "vandals" if an admin was the one who did the blanking. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:05, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
On second thought, I might as well just ask User:Drmies or User:Bishonen to do it, given how clear cut it is now that the OP has been blocked for sockpuppetry and threats of violence for four months. (And for what it's worth, I had no idea this section had been restored until Zanhe pinged me just now.) Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:09, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

Hijiri 88 I think some of the people are misunderstanding the case here. None of the actions (within this talk section) that User:Zanhe did was claimed to be 'vandalism' by myself. These statements were referencing several editorials in other pages. This page was restored almost half a year ago - and back then I think the user who opened the section was not blocked at the time. I restored the section with no edits for the reasons that I've written in the first paragraph. I was not involved in this talk section ever since up until User:Zanhe ping'd me today.Wandrative (talk) 02:51, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

@Wandrative: Are you serious? Richeaglenoble was blocked on 15 September 2017, and you restored his attack post on 2 October, while adding the message "You have no right to delete a section with no reason ... You always accuse and demoralize the Koreans as being 'nationalist'" That's what you call "not involved"? -Zanhe (talk) 03:06, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
@Zanhe: Yes that is exactly what I have written. Obviously, I don't memorize when exactly the other guy was banned (If not I ever knew if he was even banned or not) so I wrote that "I THINK the user who opened the section..." I guess I must be sorry for not guessing the exact date or not realising he was banned half a year ago. Others can always read the initial reason for recovery in its original form. Of course, it would have been good if someone ever did poast the reason for its deletion when I actually recovered it. I wrote that I was not involved since posting the reason for recovery: which has been half a year since. It is interesting that you make my words sound like a lie when everything was stated crystal clear. And then today you started to shine this section to the light once again. Do you wish me to do the same for you? Wandrative (talk) 03:36, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
@Wandrative: "The other guy" was blocked for a multitude of reasons, including posting racist attacks on the Chinese like the one I blanked and you restored. Following his block, he spent about a week rampantly socking and saying things like "it doesn't matter where you hide your family; I will find them". Why you would ever want to restore a post by someone like that several weeks after someone else had blanked it (and the blanking had been tacitly sanctioned by a multitude of editors on ANI) is beyond me. I implore you to strike your initial comment about me and how I have no right to blank other editors' comments and drop this whole thing, as it is extremely unlikely to end in your favour. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 06:17, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
  • I have again removed the nationalist/racist rant from the blocked user Richeaglenoble. They weren't blocked at the time of the removal, but Hijiri gave detailed and very good reasons for his removal in the edit summary: "WP:NOTFORUM... you are not allowed come on here and post racist rants about how evil the Chinese are and how impure their blood is." It's a little shocking to me that User:Wandrative restored the section with a comment that "You have no right to delete a section with no reason".[4] Wandrative, you restored a racist rant, which had been removed for being a racist rant, and you called that reason "no reason". I hope you will reconsider making those types of edits. (Incidentally, October 2, 2017, was less than four months ago, not six.) Bishonen | talk 10:00, 26 January 2018 (UTC).
Hijiri 88 Bishonen I am now finally informed that Richeaglenoble did use certain racist phrases in other talk pages, but the talk page that we are in seems devoid of such context. Please define why the phrase that was erased on this talk page is indeed a "racist rant".

Secondly, I have raised the question half a year ago - and no one came to answer the question. It seems apparent that this discussion is continuing for abhorrent reasons unrelated to the reasons that are being discussed. Wandrative (talk) 16:31, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

It's hard to understand what Richeaglenoble says. But I assume his "I think Chinese need some proud histories for racial integration" was a comment about race. If it wasn't, their comment was in any case a nationalist rant, which you had no business putting back. Could you please use colons to indent replies, for more clarity? See WP:INDENT and please check preview to see how it comes out. Bishonen | talk 17:09, 26 January 2018 (UTC).
@Wandrative: To be clear, the comment I blanked and Bish reblanked was a violation of WP:NOTFORUM, regardless of whether it was racist in nature. Theoretically, if another editor in good standing had written the exact same thing Richeaglenoble had written, it would have been possible to read it as a NOTFORUM violation that only looked racist. But interpreting an editor's remarks in light of other things they have written on the same talk page, in edit summaries on the attached article, and even on other completely separate pages, is quite standard procedure, and when the comment in question is read in that light it is impossible to interpret as not being racially motivated. But, as my second edit summary made clear, it doesn't even matter if it was racist; I was right to blank it, and you were wrong to write in a comment clearly directed at me You have no right to delete a section with no reason. [...] You always accuse and demoralize the Koreans as being 'nationalist', yet a statement going the other way around is wrong and unacceptable? Please strike that comment (you can use <s></s>) at your next opportunity, as it is difficult to work to resolve whatever legitimate content problems this article might have when one party to the dispute is hurling attacks against an otherwise neutral third party who is trying to solve the problem. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:08, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

Yet another war about weasel words[edit]

How to discuss if Goguryeo was a kingdom or an empire... when no definitions are given here of what could be a kingdom-but-not-an-empire (KBNAE) or an empire-but-not-a-kingdom (EBNAK) ?

When using sources from the past, we have to consider that we can only rely on Sui/Tang or Silla sources, since the Goguryeo sources were destroyed (e.g. the Sinjip (신집, 新集), compiled during Yeongyang reign). As ever, history is written by the winners. When using modern sources, we have to weight if the words Kingdom or Empire are simply used to describe an entity with a dynastic ruler or are intended to explicitly state KBNAE or EBNAK. And then, we have to weight if these assertions are really about what happened in the past... or about "how to extend our influence area right now" or about "how to adopt an inventive narration when sources from the past are so sparse" ? When using these criteria, what remains of all the alleged sources ?

On the other hand, this looks rather as only another desinfobox edit war. Another example: was the Goguryeo flag with exactly this Pantone number... or was it only red as in Krasnaya Plaza ?

Pldx1 (talk) 10:17, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

about == Controversies ==[edit]

During the heyday of Maoism, the Chinese government line was that the history of Gaogouli was Korean history. However, there was almost no research published in Goguryeo from China at the time, and China had a motivation to say so, because of its good relations with North Korea. Since the 1980s, government control over scholarship liberalized, ……During this time, some scholars such as Tan Qixiang questioned the state's old interpretation of history, arguing for the study of all polities within China's territory as part of Chinese history. ……

see also : zh:高句丽争议, please. 林卯talk? 21:37, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

  • 林卯, this is the English Wikipedia, please make an effort to communicate in comprehensible English. The Northeast Project has always been controversial (although Chinese Wikipedia can never be a proper point of reference, this was mentioned there as well), and it was organised by the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences along with provincial governments from the Northeast. Of course there were historians involved, but it wouldn't be incorrect to characterise it as Chinese government initiative. Finally, a list of Chinese-language books is meaningless and not appropriate as a form of verification, please take a look at our guidelines about citing sources. Alex Shih (talk) 08:03, 22 September 2018 (UTC)

the reason Korean views Goguryeo as Korean history[edit]

I will put it in the talk section. First, Goguryeo started within Gojoseon territory & Gojoseon people in Manchuria. Second, Goguryeo's government & its ruling people moved into North Korea a couple hundreds years before Goguryeo was destroyed. Third, regardless of Columbus being Italian, the history of USA & Columbus (Italian) belongs to USA, not Italy. In general perception & by how we humans define history, history is about the story of people. Goguryeo's direct lineage (in government, ruling class & general ethnicity) is Korean in North Korea. Therefore, Goguryeo's history doesn't belong to China but to Korea. The transition from Goguryeo to Korea is a direct & main transition. China's claim on Goguryeo's history is nothing more than a political attempt. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bearberserk (talk • contribs) 01:27, 22 January 2019 (UTC)

But you do understand that Samguk Yusa is a pseudobook and Gojoseon is merely a legendary place right? The first recorded dynasty on the Korean Peninsula was Gija Joseon, founded by a Chinese prince Gija. The area was also Han dynasty's administration before "stolen" by the Buyeo prince. "Goguryeo" was the name of the Chinese county under Xuantu jun. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.135.3.207 (talk) 18:03, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

Please note that you are replying to Bearberserk who has since been blocked from Wikipedia, so don't expect a reply. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 18:29, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

Goguryeo in Russia?[edit]

The article provides a link to the source - Kotkin, Stephen; Wolff, David. Rediscovering Russia in Asia: Siberia and the Russian Far East: Siberia and the Russian Far East. Routledge. ISBN 9781317461296. The source claims that Goguryeo was on the territory of Russia. However, the reference to 

Andrew C. Nahm.  Korea : tradition & transformation : a history of the Korean people Elizabeth, N.J., U.S.A. : Hollym International Corp., (c)1988. pp.29-31

However, in this source there is no basis for such a statement. Moreover, in the Primorsky Territory, not a single object was found that could be identified as Goguryou, although dozens of objects of the Bohai State were found. https://www.hollym.com/ belongs to the korean far right. What else adds doubtfulness to the statement.

https://opendata.mkrf.ru/opendata/7705851331-egrkn

Here is a complete list of cultural heritage sites including archaeological.

There are many objects of Bohai, Dun Gur (Dandun), Anchun Gurun (Jin), Don Nüzhen (Eastern Xia), but there is not a single Goguryeo object. During this period, all archaeological objects belong to the Yilou tribal alliance.

Can the one who insists that there are Goguryeo objects in Russia indicate the object number for a more substantive discussion?

For example 251440099920006 Krasnoyarovkoe Gorodische - object of Anchun Gurun (Jin), Don Nüzhen (Eastern Xia) period destroyed in 1246.

Please do not roll back this edit as the question is justified and the doubtfulness of the source is subject to a more significant source.Hatchiko (talk) 00:26, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

Many maps of Goguryeo, such as the one from Korean history: Old and New, clearly reach out into the Russian Far East. A joint Korean-Russian archaeological team also found Goguryeo artifacts dating to 530 AD from the Kraskino site. Article on the Kraskino fortress from the Encyclopedia of Korean Culture cites this finding, stating that the Kraskino fortress can be dated to the Goguryeo era.[5] I cannot verify the source in question, so can you maybe provide what is stated in that source(Nahm, 1988: 29-31)? Also, how did you come to the conclusion that Hollym is a far-right publication? Koraskadi (talk) 06:14, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

Kraskino or port or jurchen An or chinese Yan -It was founded in 727 after the war between Bohai and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yilou. Yes, as elsewhere in early Bohai, there are some traces of the Koguryos culture. However, the dominant culture there is not a Koguryos, but a Yamatoka one. In particular, the patterns of end discs on the tile, the device of the city wall in the form of a semicircle. Pictures of decor. The city is also mentioned as the port of Peach Trees in Japanese poetry. And this area was called Russian in 19 century Apricot Sopka. https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/krounovskiy-kurgannyy-anklav-v-sisteme-bohayskih-pogrebalnyh-pamyatnikov-dalnego-vostoka This site is identified uniquely as the Bohai. Since even approximately the exact date of foundation is known. Known by the written sources date of the war with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yilou. And its consequence - the subordination of lands to the Black River - now it is a river. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Razdolnaya_River . And it is known that immediately after this port was built. In Russia, this object is studied for 34 years.

http://www.fegi.ru/primorye/history/krask.htm

http://www.rauk.ru/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1533:2014-10-19-15-51-44&catid=126:2011-04-02%2019:33:16&lang=en&Itemid=143

https://cyberleninka.ru/search?q=%D0%9A%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B5+%D0%B3%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%B8%D1%89%D0%B5

https://cyberleninka.ru/search?q=%D0%9A%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%BE+%D0%B3%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%B8%D1%89%D0%B5

Дьякова О. В. (2014). Государство Бохай: археология, история, политика. Монография. Moscow: Наука — Восточная литература. под ред. В. Е. Ларичева. ISBN 978-5-02-036574-2.

Hundreds of works. And it is scientifically proven that this is the city of An (Yan), founded in 727 (maybe a few years later but approximately).

Only in 1998, the first Koreans arrived, did not take part in the excavations but just looked and said - "this is a Korean city." Although obviously this is based only on Korean nationalist theories. The city is undoubtedly Bohai with a large Japanese population and strong cultural influence of Japan. Archaeologically confirmed.

By the way, since I have provided my sources, could you provide the maps of which you are talking about so that we could discuss them. In particular, the year of their creation.Hatchiko (talk) 17:08, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

The said map is from Korea, old and new. It's written by Carl J. Eckbert, a respected historian specializing in Korean history. There are other maps from reliable sources where Goguryeo's territory extend into parts of the Russian Far East. During the Goguryeo controversies, Russian scholars were often invited into the dispute and were involved due to the fact that Goguryeo's territories extended into the Russian Far East. Koraskadi (talk) 22:51, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

The map should be based on archaeological sources. Provide a link to the origin of which confirmed the archaeological discovery of the object Goguryo in Russia. Or stop vandalism.Hatchiko (talk) 16:46, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
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