Talk:Elihu Yale

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Untitled[edit]

Note that Alexandra Robbins' book is called Secrets of the Tomb, not Secrets of the Tombs.... It's singular because it is one building. Still, if you insist on tombs, it's not worth an edit war. -- Someone else 06:40 Apr 11, 2003 (UTC)

I see there's been a brief edit war over whether or not the Bones building is called the tomb or the tombs. I can't speak for what it used to be called, but at least when I was at Yale, not too long ago, it was quite certainly the tomb. Like Someone Else, I don't want to start an edit war either, but I will go ahead and change it now. Remes 01:53, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Wives[edit]

Mention should be made of his wives and companions, and his children. Catherine Hynmer and their 4 children, Hieronima(sp?) de Paiva and their son David, and perhaps others who were rumoured... and also of his children. +sj + 08:59, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Any decent text bio will suffice to improve on this; but see also a few online bits.

American?[edit]

While Yale may have been born in Boston, MA, his family moved to Wales when he was two and he spent the rest of his entire childhood and youth growing up in Wales. He spent most of his working life in India and then spent his retirement back in Wales. He never once went to America. I do not know what he claimed to be but most people would not call him an "American". 99.4.120.135 (talk) 18:58, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

I propose editing the initial paragraph to "...was an English merchant..." And expanding the section about his early life: "Yale was born in Boston, MA, but his parents moved to England when he was two years old." To say he was an American would mean changing many other contemporary entries in Wikipedia - they were born in America (and some lived there for over 20 years) before living in England. They are called English. There was also no "American" country or concept of "American" citizenship at that time; but also - because of the important contribution they made to English society and English history; because they spent their adult lives in England; because they came from English families. He was certainly "a native of America". (99.4.120.135 (talk) 23:20, 23 April 2016 (UTC))

Reasonable time has passed and no one has commented either way so I'll make the change. (99.4.120.135 (talk) 14:05, 30 April 2016 (UTC))

  • Yeah, there was no warrant for that other IP editor to change it back. I added--as you may have seen--"American-born" since his birth is pretty important to his life and esp. his legacy. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 03:18, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
    • I've further changed it to "British" since although he was educated in London and spent part of his time there in retirement, both the family seat and his personal home are in Wales, not England. Yngvadottir (talk) 16:33, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
      • "American-born" he may have been, but that's not the convention on Wikipedia. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wentworth_Miller - he was born in Britain (in England to be more specific) but is clearly considered an American. There are many other examples. How is "American-born" important to his birth - beyond (like all of us) simply being born?

Also - Britain didn't exist until way after his death so "British" is not applicable (we don't call Roman Emperors "Italian"). The "where he was born" and "his family background" can/should clearly be mentioned in the "Early Life / Life" section. Neither of the recent edits is warranted but the discussion is still open... 99.4.120.135 (talk) 22:36, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

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Not encyc.[edit]

Alexandra Robbins alleges that Yale's headstone was stolen years ago from its proper setting in Wrexham. She further alleges that the tombstone is now displayed in a glass case in a room with purple walls.

Is this clairvoyancy? It needs a supporting statement. Valetude (talk) 15:52, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

edit request concerning "Tenure as President of Madras" section[edit]

It currently has the phrase "very much against their will" as a qualification to the children being kidnapped. This is redundant since kidnapping is by definition against one's will.2600:1700:7D0:97A0:EC72:CA58:675:C41F (talk) 19:46, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 June 2020[edit]

Elihu Yale's fondness for slaves may be found in two oil paintings that used to hang at the Yale University: in each of them, a floridly accoutred Yale is flaunting his good fortune with a small dark-skinned boy, a Tamil it would seem, by their side. What makes the image even more distasteful is that the boy wears a collar like a domesticated wild animal, around his neck. (see https://scroll.in/magazine/829298/the-indian-history-of-the-racist-slave-trading-yale-university-founder)It is irresponsible to be whitewashing the history of this slave trader. 2601:584:301:5130:9CE1:952:22D1:F2C6 (talk) 04:40, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. JTP (talk • contribs) 05:11, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 June 2020[edit]

There is no mention of Eli being a SLAVE TRADER!! 2601:152:4501:BFF0:BD0C:F077:C376:226B (talk) 22:10, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Darren-M talk 22:17, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Slave Trader history[edit]

Why is this not discussed? I'm literally shaking RN!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:587:100:97:AD55:260C:D011:8929 (talk) 00:21, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Sounds like you should get some help if you're that upset about something that has no evidence of being true. M4570D0N (talk) 18:25, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

A quick search for reliable sources proves otherwise.

There's no reason to deny the claim or hint that it's a rumor. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vivian James (talk • contribs) 04:50, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Elihu Yale was indeed a slave trader. Naturally, this will never be mentioned on Wikipedia. We've got to protect Yale's reputation. The admins will ban anyone who tries to add this well documented fact to the article. And in a few months, this section of the talk page will be purged as well, under the guise of "maintenance". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ceran (talk • contribs) 15:19, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

In his address to the Yale Class of 2019, Yale Dean Jonathan Holloway stated, referring to Elihu Yale: "there's no doubting the fact that he participated in the slave trade, profiting from the sale of humans" https://yalealumnimagazine.com/articles/4171-yales-narrative-andyours — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.246.243.187 (talk) 16:16, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Ownership and Execution of Slave "Cross"[edit]

The primary texts unambiguously document not only Elihu Yale's involvement in trading, punishing, and executing slaves, but also a specific incident with his slave named Cross (who Yale hanged for riding a horse without permission).

"...some of them have been so fond of that privilege that Mr. Yale hanged his groom (Cross) for riding two or three days' journey off to take the air..."

This incident was also mentioned in the most comprehensive, 20th Century history of Fort Saint George.

The hanging incident was mentioned in Indian press (in perhaps the most prestigious paper in India, _The Hindu_) upon former President Levin's visit in 2005:

The primary texts such as the Records of Fort Saint George do not make a distinction between terms like groom and manservant, and these social positions were synonymous with the word "slave" (which they used in property, trade, and criminal records). The curators note for one of the three portraits of Elihu Yale with a male slave refers exactly to this:

"Nothing is known about the boy on the right, who has just finished pouring Madeira (a sweet, fortified wine) into the glasses on the table. His fine red and grey livery (or uniform) identifies him as a servant, and the silver collar and padlock around his neck indicate that he is enslaved."

It's possible the slave in this painting is Cross, but of course we have no way of knowing.

For more tertiary evidence, it is clear from the primary sources and more modern histories that each representative of the British East India Company had slaves assigned to their manors in "White Town", where the rulers were segregated from "Black Town". I see no reason to give Elihu Yale the benefit of the doubt, especially when his cruelty was notable to even his 18th Century contemporaries.

24.63.168.193 (talk) 16:46, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Legally, slavery was never recognised in England, although this was not formalised until the late 1700s, slavery had largely ceased to exist since shortly after the Normans arrived (1066). This does not mean that Yale could not have had a slave in Britain, merely that 'ownership' would have been unenforcable. There are known instances of 'slaves' entering and leaving Britain - since the 'slave' may have had little incentive to leave his 'master', given that alternative employment would have been impossible at that time, except on similar terms. I know that in European painting of that time, a black 'page' or 'servant' would have been an 'exotic status symbol', grotesque though that seems to us now. So these paintings may say a lot about Yale's attitudes to slaves and those of his time, but may or may not be factually accurate - or may be simply bragging. The silver collar is clearly metaphorical rather than practical.Pincrete (talk) 13:52, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

This article is an indictment of Wikipedia and the types of editor that love the empowerment of the rules but not the content![edit]

On 09:17, 9 June 2020‎ I made these edits by just moving the sections around. I never changed the wording, just the order to make it read better.

I was interested in this article because the man had estates near where I live and it was a piss poor article as it stood because the sections were just facts in no discernible chronological order.

Anyway after just reordering the content and not really changing anything my edits were almost immediately reverted by MaterialScientist (probably one of the most egregious editors on this site). Remember I never changed anything except reorder the sections and the already written paragraphs. But apparently that was not acceptable to this individual. They would rather have a crap article that they protect than a well written one.

Now I see the page has been blocked to people with common sense and fresh perspective and the usual (I will ask somebody else to do the work for me) tags have also been added. It's quite pathetic really. In fact it's more than pathetic, when you take what is written and make it better but then it's reverted by people who have no vested in the content only control. The article is a chronological mess that jumps forward and back in time through just a random list of facts.

And you can thank MaterialScientist for that. Until more people complain about this person, the more crap article like this will continue. 81.159.166.232 (talk) 13:20, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

Slave Trader Disruptive Editing[edit]

The fact that Elihu Yale is a slave trader is sourced in the article and as well as in numerous additional source mentioned here. It is a notable aspect of the man and should not be removed. Additionally, text that people have argued he was an abolitionist have no supporting citations, save one article that describes Elihu Yale as a slave trader but references past versions of the Wikipedia article. This would be a particularly obvious example of citogenesis; the claim that some consider him an abolitionist should not be in the article unless an actual source illustrating this can be found. Editors should not engage in disruptive editing without citing sources. Ummonk (talk) 03:29, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

The source in the article says that "[a]lthough he probably did not own any of these people – the majority were held as the property of the East India Company – he certainly profited both directly and indirectly from their sale." That's not what the vast majority of people mean by "slave trader." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nycbusiness86 (talk • contribs) 17:45, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
The source being used for this claim - and others - was written by Joseph Yannielli described on the source's own website as ""Digital History at Yale" was originally established by Joseph Yannielli in 2009, in his capacity as Instructional Innovation Intern for the Department of History." There is no reason to doubt the factual accuracy of Yannielli's claims - but an intern is hardly the ultimate authority on Yale. Only if the balance of sources use the term, should it be used - otherwise attributed and give due WEIGHT.
I agree that 'slave trader' is being used because it sounds bad rather than because it is the most accurate, widely used or informative term. "Arms dealer" sounds worse than "investor/manager of a company supplying equipment to government(s)", but they often amount to the same thing morally, except one sounds sleazy and morally culpable, the other doesn't. Elihu Yale, profited from the slave trade, the uncomfortable truth is that so did almost everyone, except the slaves themselves, including the people of Europe who got cheap sugar etc as a result, and the white people of America who established a profitable functioning economy, and democratic society, built substantially on the labour of people wholly excluded from the economic benefits or democratic institutions.
I think the role of Yale, and the source of his wealth deserve coverage, but present text is skewed towards giving undue emphasis to 'slavery' in the light of recent events - that isn't our job IMO regardless of modern sensibilities about the injustice of slavery. Pincrete (talk) 08:34, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 July 2020[edit]

Remove references to Elihu Yale as a "slave trader."

Elihu Yale was not a slave trader in the way the term is used by the vast majority of people. Footnotes 1 and 7 which purportedly supports the term, calls him a slave trader "[a]lthough he probably did not own any of these people – the majority were held as the property of the East India Company – he certainly profited both directly and indirectly from their sale." I.e., Elihu Yale did not own slaves or personally trade them.

There may be activist or academic reasons to call someone a slave trader who "profited" from the slave trade. But that's not the way it's commonly used in English. It's highly misleading to retain it. Nycbusiness86 (talk) 17:41, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ~ Amkgp 💬 11:47, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
The balance of sources on the page already justify that, whilst his company profitting from slaving is undisputed, that he was actively a trader is disputed. The lead should be a summary of the article - this was not and I have amended accordingly.Pincrete (talk) 13:58, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

spelling[edit]

Second sentence:

"he benefitted from the slave trade"

read:

benefited

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